Episode 115: Greek Yogurt with Natasha Case
Mistakes, broken laws, and ice cream sandwiches. And then the government pours bleach on your food. Then your public defender hires you to cater a party. All that, and bacterial mysteries. (Listen here.)
Katherine: Hello, everyone, Katherine here. I'm starting 2019 a couple of weeks late, but who cares, whose watching? We're here, we're back, Smart Mouth is back, hooray. We're kicking it off with Natasha Case, she's the founder of Coolhaus, that's spelled C-O-O-L-H-A-U-S. You've definitely read about her ice cream sandwich company before, and now it's in pints in grocery stores, and they're doing a vegan line, and she's just started a podcast, it's called Start to Sale, I'm enjoying it. She's a busy lady this Natasha.
Katherine: I also wanted to mention that I am going to a podcast festival in Portland, Oregon the second week of February, it's called Listen up Portland, and I'm going to be doing a live show on Saturday, February 16th at 2:00 PM. I think at a bar, the details are still TBD, but it's coming together. I'm really excited about it, and I'm excited about what is essentially my first trip to Portland. I'm going to eat in all the restaurants, and please Tweet at me @katherinespiers and tell me which restaurants in particular, I should go to. But yeah, if you are able to come to the show, tickets are $10 and you can find them at listenupportland.com. Yeah, come say, Hi. Also, if you're enjoying this show, please tell one of your friends about Smart Mouth, I really appreciate you all spreading the word.
Katherine: Alright, on to the episode.
Katherine: About once a year I will buy a box of cereal, usually either Rice Checks, Corn Pops, or Kegg's.
Katherine: And the reason I only do it once a year, is that I can really house that box in a day.
Natasha: Amazing. What's happening on that day when you're housing that box? Is it just-
Katherine: It's probably a day where I'm like, "Oh-oh, mental health wise, things are not looking good."
Natasha: Okay, okay, cool. I was going to say its something like a trip to the local THC, CBD sore.
Katherine: Yes, yes, probably. It goes hand in hand, doesn't it?
Katherine: It's legal in California, so you can just talk--
Natasha: It really does fit the bell.
Katherine: -- about it.
Natasha: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Katherine: There is such an upscale Cannabis store very close to me.
Katherine: And it's interesting how going in there, first you feel like you're doing something wrong, because you enter it and there's a hidden door and you have to announce yourself there--
Katherine: -- and you know that there's cameras, and all that kind of stuff. But then, once you get into the actual area, it's like being in an extremely upscale jewelry store.
Natasha: Oh totally. The display--
Natasha: -- and the merchandising.
Katherine: Yeah. And the things that they've done with packaging--
Katherine: -- the cannabis.
Natasha: Yes, it's become really beautifully branded.
Katherine: So beautiful.
Natasha: Yeah, yeah.
Katherine: Which I think is something they have to do to make it seem even more legitimate, right?
Natasha: Yeah. And I think also, just why wouldn't it be? I mean, especially these products, they are still a relative expense.
Katherine: Yes. Yeah.
Natasha: You want something that also feels high-end if you're spending the money.
Natasha: And I think too, something I've seen that's gotten a little better, is clear description of how much you should have, and what the amounts are, and what they mean, because that was another thing for our generation who--
Natasha: -- it started out being wrong and it no longer is. But that was an issue too, because people are just baking things at home and bringing it to a party.
Natasha: You have no idea of the dosage.
Natasha: You have no idea of the potency.
Katherine: Yeah. I feel like even if I didn't believe in legalization, and ending prohibition and all that, I would have to say that legalizing it, one of the boring but good things about it, is just that, is the standardized dosing.
Natasha: Totally, totally.
Katherine: Because they have to label it like its food now.
Natasha: Yeah, no. And it should be that way.
Natasha: I think it's a better experience.
Katherine: Absolutely. Freak out.
Natasha: Yeah. That was the constant thing also with our generation, you are ... "Oh, it's not working, it's not ... I need more." And you're just totally--
Natasha: Who knows where that situations going to end up. But, I'm particularly interested in the super, it's almost like the micro dosing of the edibles. I think such a small amount that it's almost like having a beer, or that you can--
Natasha: -- easily have it in the day and go on. So there's ... Also, it gives more opportunity to explore the occasions for the different doses.
Katherine: Yeah, I think so.
Katherine: But it turns out, you can still be an idiot and misread a label--
Katherine: -- especially if it's a TCH and CBD product. For our listeners who aren't as well versed ... Okay, you can probably hear Matilda freaking out in the background. She's playing with her toy corn.
Natasha: She's like CBD.
Katherine: Anyway, I had this tincture that was CBD and THC, and I mixed up just reading wrong, it was a four to one, but mostly THC--
Natasha: Okay, okay, I got it, got it.
Katherine: -- and I had it wrong in my head. I got so high, this was only a couple of months ago, that I actually went out and sat on the sidewalk, because I figured that I was going to die and I wanted my body to be found quickly.
Natasha: Oh. That such a marijuana induced line of thinking.
Katherine: Yes, exactly. So I was real hackety.
Natasha: More like extreme Jewish Hypochondriac also, it's in that bucket.
Katherine: So, I've got all of that going for me.
Natasha: Yeah. I can be one of those as well, so I definitely can relate.
Katherine: I was really glad when I wasn't high anymore.
Natasha: Yeah, it's not what it's [crosstalk 00:05:29]
Katherine: I thought about it, I was like, "Well, that was an experience."
Natasha: But, you know look, I also find some of the packaging is still ... it's still ... like it's still in its infancy, that's what cool. Now, if you're like, "Oh, its been around, and there's all these brands." Well, no. If you look at the trajectory if you compare it to alcohol, I mean, there's still so much, I think, discovery and learning, and learning how to label things clearly, or to just educate people more on different purposes.
Natasha: So, what's amazing is it really still is just getting going--
Katherine: And absolutely it's--
Natasha: -- in so many ways.
Katherine: Yeah, no, it is. And I think it's going to be really interesting and that some people are going to make a lot of money. Actually, this is not planned, but I should promote the Cannabis business podcast that we have on the network, it's called--
Katherine: -- Green and Gold, so everyone should check it out.
Natasha: Oh, yes.
Katherine: They interview people who are in the industry, and are figuring out all the ways that they're probably going to make millions. But then, also talking about like, "The weird thing is, my dad was in jail for this--"
Katherine: -- "and now I'm allowed to become a millionaire of off it."
Katherine: So, there's a lot to explore--
Natasha: Well, get on that.
Katherine: -- with Cannabis, right?
Natasha: Yeah, yeah, totally. And look, for the disruptive thinkers, those will be the ones who are thinking outside of the original constraints of the industry when it was widely illegal. So, I think people who are willing to kind of go out of the box and execute, yeah, you should have a shot at being a millionaire--
Natasha: -- or a billionaire.
Katherine: Yes, for sure. Now, you came into your industry from a different way, but there was never any issue of you breaking laws. Maybe some health codes at the beginning, because started food businesses, it's like, "What are these weird rules?"
Natasha: I have some stories about that.
Katherine: I bet you do. What did you do wrong?
Natasha: Well, let's just go right there, I think, right?
Katherine: Yeah, lets.
Natasha: Let's just get right into it. So, okay. Well, the original truck that we launched with, we had very, very humble beginnings.
Natasha: Because we were 25 when we started, we were coming out of the recession, my former career was architecture, and so, this is not like we had this necessary business portfolio to show to raise money, for example. So, very humble beginnings, and I really wanted to do this food meets architecture concept that I had sort of discovered in undergraduate architecture studio, which I can tell you more about. But, kind of as far as the launch strategy, we had this food meets architecture idea, we wanted to do these inspired sandwich ... ice cream sandwiches named after architects, baking everything from scratch, making the ice cream from scratch.
Natasha: And so, really, the only kind of option we saw to enter the market place was a mobile food truck. We couldn't afford ... A scoop shop wasn't going to happen, we didn't understand grocery, and even with the mobile food truck, or ice cream truck, we had so little to spend on it. So, yeah.
Katherine: And this was in 2009-ish?
Natasha: 2009, exactly.
Katherine: Which was really when the sort of gourmet food truck idea was really hitting the streets.
Natasha: Yeah, it was totally in its infancy. It was like ... It was super pioneering thinking, even in general. Well, I guess I'm backing up a bit, but back then, we take it for granted now, but you walked down the freezer aisle in late 2008, early 2009, there's not this plethora of craft ice cream brands, unique flavors, story-telling like you do now. So, we walked down the freezer aisle, and frankly, we just didn't feel represented. These were brands that had been around forever and really weren't innovating, and so that didn't speak to us. And we definitely didn't feel represented as millennials, and we didn't feel represented as women.
Natasha: So, I think we saw an opportunity, not only with the product, but the culture and the lifestyle of what could be done. So, there was something there, and we knew we had to act. And we literally ... So, after going to the grocery store, we came back home and Googled hipster ice cream truck. We were like, "If we're going to do this, let's see what's out there." Noting came up, not even kidding. There was one cool ice cream truck that sold records,--
Natasha: -- and merchandise. We were like, "This is ... We have to do this." How often do you not have millions of hits on any Google search--
Natasha: -- let alone that?
Katherine: Yes, yes. absolutely
Natasha: And I think we now own those Google AdWords, by the way.
Katherine: Oh, yeah, of course.
Natasha: So, yeah, full circle.
Katherine: Got to lock those down.
Natasha: Full circle. But anyway, back to the illegal crimes. So we had this POS truck, I'm allow to ... it's on a podcast, right?
Katherine: Yeah, swear your heart out.
Natasha: It's a shitty, shitty truck.
Natasha: Did I say shitty truck? And so, we had found it on Craig's list, and we went out and checked it out, and it was just ... it was not drivable, it was just totally a piece of crap, but it did have chrome rims. So-
Katherine: That's cool.
Natasha: -- we settled on the price of $2700 for the truck.
Katherine: Okay, okay.
Natasha: We towed it back to LA--
Katherine: And it wasn't a food truck, right?
Natasha: It was a postal van--
Natasha: -- that was kind of being used as an ice cream truck.
Katherine: Got it, okay.
Natasha: Right? So it had some of the basic basics.
Katherine: Got it.
Natasha: But, no power of steering, it was definitely ... the steering was on the right side of the truck, it was definitely a mail van. So, this truck was really meant as, if at all, the only possibility was really selling pre-packaged ice cream.
Natasha: And what we wanted to do was hand-scoop ice cream sandwiches. Scoop to order, choose your cookie, choose your ice cream, and we had really kind of made that decision because we launched our Coachella, and that's when we realized it was just better to let people create their own, and frankly, just a much easier operation in that format.
Katherine: Oh, okay.
Natasha: Yeah. So, we had kind of come to like, "This is what we're going to, and this is what people love." And this is America, people want to choose. So, anyway, after kind of Coachella had happened, and it really went viral from there, and it really kind of took off. So we immediately just fixed up the truck with the super basics. I'm talking, get a logo on the truck, make the doors operable, make it so it can drive, but that's really all we could afford to do. And we went and got this permit for pre-packaged ice cream sandwiches, because that's all the truck could be permitted for based on the size, based on different aspects of the ... how many sinks and the plumbing and all that.
Natasha: And so, we basically just hit the streets, because we've just got to get this out there. This is in demand, people are calling us, people are wanting this. And so, in the beginning, as the industry was just taking off, it wasn't sort of being scrutinized very much, so--
Katherine: I remember that, yes.
Natasha: -- we could go out in the truck and scoop to order the ice cream sandwiches with a different kind of permit, and it was all good. And basically what happened is, one First Friday that we were at, which is that festival in Venice, I actually had a health inspector call me ... This is how ... We were ... There was comradery between the Health Department and the trucks, it was not this--
Katherine: Well, that's funny and unusual.
Natasha: -- antagonistic thing in the beginning, yeah.
Natasha: And he was like, "You know, they're scooping the ice cream on your truck. You have people here and they're scooping, they're not pre-packaged sandwiches like your permit says." And I was like, "Oh, God how could they. How dare they, this is a pre-packaged operation. I don't know what they're thinking, I will speak to them and it won't happen again." He was like, "Cool, okay. Well, nice to talk to you Natasha." And so, that's that. Fast forward maybe a month or so, I'm on the truck and I'm selling in Santa Monica, I have a huge line, Health Department shows up and I'm definitely scooping to order the ice cream sandwiches, and they're like, "You ... We told you, that's not what your permit is for, and you are in deep trouble now."
Natasha: So they poured bleach on all the ice cream, it's the saddest, saddest thing. I had this huge line--
Katherine: Oh, that pisses me off.
Natasha: -- just can't sell it, haul it away. It's just the whole ... It's an act of humiliation, you know?
Katherine: I mean, you just said they weren't antagonistic, but that sounds extremely antagonistic. I think most people who listen to this show, have seen the footage of government agencies pouring bleach on raw milk, and all that sort of stuff.
Natasha: Oh, yes. Totally. It definitely that kind of ... I mean, I think in that situation they went in with guns also.
Katherine: They go in on Venice beach, yes.
Katherine: I know, it's outrageous.
Natasha: Yeah, so this was ... There were no weapons--
Katherine: I'm glad.
Natasha: -- that I'm aware of, but they used the weapon of their emotion, and it was a very, very sad day. I remember I had to go eat a giant bowl of Pho after to feel better, then I felt okay.
Natasha: And then anyway, so the follow-up is, they said, "We're taking you to Court." And so, I literally had to go to Court, it was the people versus Natasha case.
Katherine: Oh no.
Katherine: Oh my gosh.
Natasha: And also ... So, this level of offense was, I guess, similar, or must have been similar to a DUI, because everyone else with me in the Courtroom, that was their charge.
Katherine: Oh my gosh.
Natasha: And I didn't know this, but when they call you up, because everyone would go up before the judge, kind of one by one. Then they call you up, they read your blood alcohol level from when you were pulled over or arrested.
Katherine: I see.
Natasha: So there'd be these little old ladies like, "Mrs. Jones, please come before the judge."
Katherine: Oh my gosh.
Natasha: "Mrs. Jones, 2.1."
Katherine: Oh my gosh.
Natasha: And everyone would be like, "Oh, damn, you old man. You could have dead, what were you thinking?" People were ... each time, it was so rowdy. It was kind of amazing, and finally they get to me, The People Versus Natasha case, and I go up. And there was actually a really comfortable chair--
Katherine: Is there?
Natasha: -- so I sat next to my public defender, and I sat in the comfortable chair. They're like, "Stand up, what are you doing. Get out of the comfortable chair." Okay. And then they were kind of reading, "Okay, the sink wasn't right, or this and that." And the public defender, she leans over to me and she's like, "It's an ice cream company, right?" And I was like, "Yeah." She was like, "Do you do kids parties?" I said, "I do." She said, "What do they cost?" I was like, "$5 a sandwich." She's like, "Okay, let's talk after." I was like, "I think I'm going to be okay." I totally was, "I'm going to be fine." She was amazing, and business is going to move forward.
Katherine: That's fantastic.
Natasha: And indeed, they basically were like, "You have to build a proper truck, and then we'll kind of waive all this stuff." Which is great.
Katherine: I see.
Natasha: It's like the law should be that way where it's like, "Okay, you did wrong, but show us that you can do right, and it's all good." And that's essentially what they did.
Katherine: Oh my God.
Natasha: So we did, and it lit a fire under us to build the proper truck, which we needed to do anyway, and we needed more than one truck already anyway to meet demand. So it ended up being, kind of a little slap on the wrist to ultimately do the thing that was necessary anyway.
Katherine: That's exciting.
Katherine: And I'm glad that you didn't have to go to jail for it or anything.
Natasha: No jail, no. No jail.
Katherine: It does seem like you guys used a lot of creative thinking at the beginning of Coolhaus. There's this--
Katherine: I found an interview from at least a few years ago in the LA Times, and there was a line in it that I feel like went kind of unexamined in it. It was just a sentence and I was like, "Ha."
Natasha: I love this.
Natasha: God what did I say?
Katherine: Coachella is in the town of Indio, which is 150 miles away from LA, thereabouts--
Natasha: Something like that.
Natasha: Well, we got one free 200 mile tow from Triple A--
Katherine: So this--
Natasha: -- and that's how we got there.
Katherine: Well, this is what I want to ask you, because the sentence is, "The Craig's list ice cream truck had no engine, so Case bought a Triple A premier membership, which comes with a free 200 mile tow." And that's the whole ... There's no follow up to that, it's just that. I was like, "Did you say that ..."--
Natasha: What a second.
Katherine: -- "tow yourself to Coachella?"
Natasha: We did, we indeed did. Bootstrapping my friend.
Katherine: I love that, that's so funny.
Katherine: So, how did you ... How did that go down when the tow-truck driver showed up?
Natasha: Yeah. So, he shows up ... Yeah, this was the luxury membership, or the platinum and you got, I remember, that tow and you got a free towel, that's it, Triple A. I was like--
Katherine: Oh good.
Natasha: -- "Oh, this is happening." So, the guy shows up, I think we basically pretended the broke down even though it never drove, and I'm pretty sure he was onto us. In our minds--
Katherine: Because you're like, "We want to go this music festival."
Natasha: Yeah, "We need to get there, I don't know. Oh, is the engine just gone? I didn't notice that." So, yeah, he ... I think in our minds we thought we had totally ... the deceit was masterfully executed, but I think he was like, "These girls just really need some help."
Katherine: Yeah, yeah.
Natasha: So, he agreed to do it. He had a flatbed, put the truck on the flatbed, I followed his car and ... Freya was with the tow-truck driver in the tow mobile, and I'm following, and what's funny is the truck, it had a camper roof, so it was modified to be taller than the original postal van. So, basically, I remember as were getting on our way and we start to go under this underpass on the freeway, and I'm following and I'm thinking like, "Damn that's looking like it's going to cut it really close." Because we hadn't measured, or factored in any of that.
Katherine: Yeah, yeah.
Natasha: And so, as it's going under I remember breathing, I think it probably cleared by maybe a couple of feet, but that looks--
Natasha: -- really close when you're about-
Katherine: Yes, absolutely.
Natasha: Yeah. So despite the obstacles she made it, and the truck made it, and they just kind of plopped it in the Coachella camp ground and that is how we launched.
Katherine: It's funny how stressful starting a business can be in ways that you never even expected, like not running into freeway underpasses.
Natasha: No, there's ... Look, I mean, here's what I think about it. One, we weren't putting all our eggs in this basket, we still had our full time jobs. And I think you really have to do that in the food industry, because it's just it's such a challenging world to be in, in terms of really getting to a place of sustainably making money. That it's kind of better to grow and incubate an idea as long as possible to alleviate some of the stress that can come with starting a business. Because, honestly, it was sort of very intense, but I don't think I felt actually that stressed out because I was sort of like, "Look, we have nothing to lose. We know there's a moment to do this. We think we have a kind of crazy, creative idea, and we're willing to give it all it takes to execute it. If it doesn't work out, we go back to our regular lives."
Natasha: So, that really helped. I don't know if Freya would say the same, I think Freya was quite stressed out.
Katherine: I mean, it's all mindset, right?
Katherine: It's just how you choose to look at things.
Katherine: Actually, when we were recording this, yesterday on Twitter, there's this big brewha about something Conan O'Brien said, about how he was talking to someone like either Mel Brookes or Al Brookes about how stressful it was to entertain people every night, and the more person he was talking to was like, "What do you care, we all die anyway?" And how Conan O'Brien was like, "That's ..." And ever since then I've felt fine, I haven't felt any stress, because we all die--
Natasha: Yeah, that's a good--
Katherine: -- and it doesn't matter.
Katherine: And it was interesting seeing--
Natasha: He could be a great Jewish Hypochondriac.
Katherine: Yes. It was interesting seeing the responses, because some people were like, "Whoa, is Conan O'Brien okay?" And other people were like, "This is wonderful."
Natasha: This is a reframe, yeah.
Natasha: Yeah, totally. It's like ... I think actually, what it makes you do is just really live in the moment.
Natasha: And appreciate all you do have going, instead of worrying what could not happen--
Natasha: -- or what could be missed, then you're like, "Oh, actually this is a really ... I have the opportunity to be on stage and entertain people and make them laugh, and I'm going to give it my best." Or whatever, you know?
Katherine: I know. Its so hard to change your mindset--
Natasha: It's mindset, yeah.
Katherine: -- if you're more of a stressed out negate, I would guess.
Natasha: Right. Well, you know what, the half-glass-full's need the half-glass-empties. We all--
Natasha: -- work together I think in some ... Because for me, I started the business with Freya, who we're now married, have a child, everything worked out. But, she ... For me, I'm the fearless optimist, and not to say she's fearless too, and she also definitely sees the bright side, but she was the one to be like, "Well, how about this?" Or, "This has to come back to reality, we can't just do that." So, it's a check and balance, but I think that ultimately, if you want to be an entrepreneur, you kind of have to see the problems and the challenges as a thrill.
Natasha: Like, "Okay, how can I go and solve this?"
Natasha: Or, "How am I going to ..." For me, I kind of thing like, "When I tell the story of how this crazy thing happened, how am I going to sound in this story? Am I going to sound like I just lost it?"
Natasha: "Am I going to sound like I kept it together, and I took the steps to solve the problem?"
Katherine: Yeah, yeah. Because I'm launching my company too, the production company, TableCakes--
Natasha: Okay, so cool.
Katherine: And ... Thank you.
Natasha: Great name.
Katherine: Thank you, thank you. And it's ... Yeah, you have to be either be like, "Oh my God, this problem is insurmountable." Or, be like, "Hey, fuck you problem."
Katherine: So I imagine that dairy products in general are of interest to you?
Natasha: Yes. Well, I would say, yes, and also just frozen desert, and also just kind of ... I think it's even broader than that, especially for me with Coolhaus, I feel like down the road we could even break out of frozen. We could do--
Natasha: Yeah, absolutely. I think so.
Katherine: Like what?
Natasha: Well, there's a lot more to do with dairy, and then we have dairy free coming out this year, which I can tell you all about.
Katherine: Yeah. A lot of companies are doing that.
Natasha: Yeah, yeah.
Katherine: Is that, now be honest, is that because you want to, or is it because it would be stupid not to?
Natasha: Yeah. I have to say that it's much more the former, because for me, what's always been great about Coolhaus people are like, "How did you know to do that or that flavor?" Well, we're a company that is becoming less rare, but it had been rare for longer, where we are our own target consumer. It's just been a really cool journey to create that product, and I believe that people who are dairy free and who love dairy will love it equally.
Katherine: That's the goal.
Katherine: Did you do frozen yogurt?
Natasha: No, we did not.
Natasha: But, yes.
Katherine: so, Greek Yogurt is one of your favorite foods--
Katherine: -- or go to foods.
Katherine: But you didn't do frozen yogurt for your company?
Natasha: Okay, I hear where you're coming from, and I think I need to take some thoughtful moments.
Katherine: Well, you know it's interesting because these--
Natasha: It's still possible.
Katherine: Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with ... I think people talk about trendiness, and they sort of disparage it, but there was a moment when frozen yogurt ... There have been a couple of moments in our lifetimes when frozen yogurts was a thing. There was TCBY, and then there was Pitsberry--
Katherine: -- 15 years later. But, if it's not the thing to do right now, then it's not the thing to do.
Natasha: Well, here's my thing, whether it's happening right now or not, I just don't know if the frozen yogurt kind of ... what it takes to make that as a desert, belongs in our ethos, because it tends to be more of a low fat high sugar all of a sudden done--
Katherine: Right, '80s style dieting.
Natasha: -- to make it freeze property. Totally, to make it freeze properly, to get the texture right. So, that ... we're more into the high fat, and they do have sugar, it is an indulgent desert, everything that we make, so that doesn't fit. However, what could be interesting is a Greek yogurt ice cream, or kind of more like you would see in Europe, it's kind of that more sour but also still high fat, and there could be delicious honey, delicious granola. So, there's something there, but I don't know that it would be--
Katherine: So it is possible--
Natasha: -- a frozen yogurt.
Katherine: Yeah, I know ... I wonder if it's possible to have an indulgent frozen yogurt, which first of all, in American, I don't know about in Europe, but in America people will be like, "What are you talking about?"
Natasha: Yeah, yeah.
Katherine: "This is for '80s style diet."
Natasha: Yeah, it's true. It's possible, and maybe that's ... Maybe we're on to next year's innovation.
Katherine: Yeah, maybe.
Natasha: Yeah, it could be interesting.
Katherine: There's so many times on the show where I'm like, "P.S give me 10% if you actually do this idea."
Natasha: Done, just don't tell my investors, they're not listening.
Katherine: Okay, great.
Katherine: Yeah. So let's talk about what yogurt is, not just what it could be.
Natasha: And what it is not.
Katherine: Yes. So, it's fermented milk, which is basically the beginning and end of what it is.
Katherine: It tastes different than milk, has a different texture so we can use it for different recipes--
Katherine: -- that sort of thing. But, probably the most important thing, as with so many foods that are ancient and worldwide, it's preserves food.
Katherine: So you've got your milk that's going to go bad in a day, you just ferment it, turn it into yogurt now you've got it for a week.
Natasha: Yeah, I love it.
Natasha: Isn't that a beautiful thing?
Katherine: Yeah, I think so.
Natasha: Because food waste is such an issue in this country, and there are solutions like that, that are great, and you have to kind of learn the basics. But, it's not actually that hard to do if you kind of go through it several times, and then they're delicious, and in many ways I think even more versatile.
Katherine: Yeah. And I think that in America ... mainstream America, we're starting to come around to fermented foods. The very idea of fermentation is being healthy, which is our culture to be concerned with whether or not it's healthy.
Natasha: Told you I'd have some pun jokes for you.
Katherine: Oh, when I was researching this I kept thinking, "We're living in a bacterial world, and I'm a bacterial girl."
Natasha: I love that.
Katherine: That was fun for me.
Natasha: That's good. That's a good tag line.
Katherine: Yeah. For sure. So- But there is something to be said for it, if we learned how to ferment our own food. Like if you've got a carton of milk and you're like, "Oh-oh, this is starting to turn," make it into yogurt.
Katherine: And I think that's something that we don't ... our culture doesn't think about as much, like how to save this--
Natasha: The culture of things is distracting me now.
Katherine: Yeah. Sorry. Yes. Our society--
Natasha: Thank you, okay that's good. That's good. No, I think that's really true, and even Kefir verse yogurt and those, have become, I think, more knowledge around that, which I love to have Kefir always at the house.
Natasha: Yeah. I actually have raw Kefir--
Katherine: That's cool.
Natasha: -- because you can get it in California.
Natasha: Yeah, you were talking about the whole raw ... I think it's even more delicious and even more nutritious in some ways, but I think the different types of, even just if you're looking at dairy, the formats in which you ferment it and what it can be used for, or the use of it, is interesting.
Katherine: Yeah, totally. There's a lot of stuff we can do with food if we get creative with it, and if we have the--
Katherine: -- time and the inclination. So, so many societies have yogurt, but the word yogurt is Turkish, and it's ... The earliest written references that we know are definitely about yogurt, are from Turkey and places around that now, country. And I think that for people who are familiar with Eastern, Mediterranean, and Central Asian food, you see how much yogurt is used.
Katherine: And as we were saying, the difference between sweet and savory I think in America, it's thought of as a sweet breakfast or snack, but it's a savory--
Katherine: -- item in a lot of the world.
Natasha: Totally. It tastes buttery.
Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And it's weird because I have really started eating Eastern Mediterranean food, cooking it a lot at home, and I eat highly spiced chickpeas with lebneh--
Katherine: -- which is the super thick yogurt--
Natasha: It's so good.
Katherine: -- and it's weird because it's my favorite meal to eat now, but every time I make it I'm like, "Is this gross?" Because it's not in my head to use yogurt instead of a rice.
Natasha: Yeah, it's a thing.
Katherine: But why would I put chickpeas and rice together, that's just doubling up your carbs.
Natasha: You want your amino acids.
Katherine: Yeah, exactly. It makes so much more sense.
Natasha: Yeah. It feels maybe like a better balance.
Natasha: With the yogurt.
Katherine: But it always strikes me, even as I'm totally chowing down, I'm like, "Is this weird?"
Katherine: Because it's just not what I was raised with.
Natasha: Yeah, it's so true.
Katherine: I wasn't really--
Natasha: It's cool that the ... I mean, I have a son whose almost two, and I just think of the foods he's already been introduced to, and had, and mostly loved, are so many things that I didn't even come to until much later in life. And look, I'm from California and from LA that's been multicultural for a long time, and we had in theory, the access ... the typical access one would have to whatever interesting food is in the market. But, I don't think I really, really started having avocado, I would say, until middle school, high school.
Natasha: Yeah. That was not a thing that was just around the house when we grew up, for sure.
Katherine: Oh, interesting.
Natasha: Sushi, definitely later. Maybe we went a few times, and we got basics, but he's ... Romi's had his first raw roll, and before that he had crab. I mean, he'd been to sushi restaurants probably ten times before he was even one, one and a half--
Natasha: -- and avocado, like chips and gauc, is just ... it's like ... So they'll grow up just more and more kind of these influences and it won't seem normal.
Katherine: Which is so cool, and I think might be the best thing about living on the Pacific Rim.
Katherine: Do you think it's the entire Pacific Rim?
Natasha: Yeah, it's true.
Katherine: Because people just can't get enough criss crossing the ocean.
Natasha: Yeah, no. That's--
Katherine: And bringing their foods with them.
Natasha: It's great, I'm not complaining.
Katherine: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Turkey wise, another thing that's different about the original yogurt, is that the farm animals they had were not cows, they had sheep and goats.
Natasha: Ah, yes.
Katherine: And it wasn't for their meat, it was for their dairy, and for their wool to a lesser extent. So, here's the thing, we've got to talk about lactose intolerance, because it's a big part of why yogurt is so popular, is that most people, I think that's the correct way of putting it, most people are lactose intolerant.
Natasha: I think almost 80% of the world.
Natasha: Technically. There's a spectrum--.
Katherine: There totally is.
Natasha: -- but, yeah.
Katherine: Yeah. So what ... Scientifically what this all is, is that we are all born, humans, with lactase already in us. That's an enzyme, and that's so that we can breastfed. But, then once we're not breastfed anymore, lactase disappears and that creates lactose intolerance.
Natasha: So, it doesn't disappear for some people, but disappears for others?
Katherine: Right. It says that, generally worldwide, it's like 65% of the population is lactose intolerant, but in some areas it's like 90%.
Katherine: So, it varies based on your ethnic background.
Natasha: I think Caucasian is most likely to not be lactose intolerant, is that right?
Katherine: Correct. Yes,--
Katherine: -- that is. But when you ferment milk, aka making yogurt and cheese, most of the lactose turns into lactic acid--
Natasha: That's right.
Katherine: -- which people can still deal with.
Katherine: So that's why more people can hang with yogurt and cheese.
Natasha: It's true, it's so true.
Natasha: Versus drinking a glass of milk--
Natasha: -- or having a latte, and yeah, totally.
Katherine: Which is awesome, because since we're not getting milk straight from the farm, we're getting the pasteurized stuff, milk isn't the most interesting food you can consume, but I would say that cheese is the most interesting food you can consume.
Natasha: So interesting, very interesting.
Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. So, there's this thing that happens a lot in food history, where people are like, "Oh, the first time it happened must have been an accident," because they're like, "How did these ancient people figure out how to put bacteria into milk?"
Katherine: "They must have accidentally ..."--
Natasha: It must have gone bad, and they found ... yeah.
Katherine: Or a leaf fell in it, and rotted it. Or, the idea being, that if you transport milk in organs that are now bags--
Katherine: -- that they picked up the bacteria from that. I mean, maybe, but here's the thing, all these ancient civilizations that had yogurt, they also had beer, and they also had bread. So people, I would say--
Natasha: Were fermenting.
Katherine: -- know what fermentation is.
Natasha: Yeah, and in order to survive without refrigeration--
Natasha: -- like pastrami--
Natasha: -- was Romanian--
Natasha: -- carried under the horses belly, is where I think it kind of cured or whatever. And the whole point was that it was preserved for as long as possible, because these are not wealthy groups of people, so you needed protein that could last 30 days. So it comes out of ... So much also comes out of, there could have been and accident, but also being inventive out of necessity.
Katherine: Well, and I think that just because we don't have written record of scientific experiments, and theories, and things like that, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. I mean, we always like to think that we're smarter than our fore bearers, but the truth is they were figuring out how to feed themselves--
Katherine: -- without Googling it. So-
Natasha: Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's true.
Katherine: So I bet it wasn't an accident.
Natasha: Well said.
Katherine: Here's something I didn't know, different lactobacilli, or bacilli, I don't actually know how it's pronounced, but lactobacillus is the main bacteria that ferments--
Katherine: Yogurt. They taste different. If you get one from one place and another from another place--
Natasha: That makes sense.
Katherine: -- you get different tasting yogurts out of them.
Natasha: Yeah, I believe that.
Katherine: Totally. I had never thought about that.
Natasha: Well, bacteria ... We really don't understand bacteria at all.
Natasha: Have you looked into this, it's fascinating. I think it was a New Yorker article I read, where they were like, "We understand one percent or less of the bacteria on our earth." It's such a mystery, and it's everywhere. I mean, soil, and you know?
Natasha: So, who knows kind of what and why is differentiating it.
Natasha: And the other thing that I ... Well, first of all, I always believe it's better to get things like probiotics from food, but I've also been looking into the probiotic thing more, and we're all basically our own specific mother bacteria. So one that could be really helpful for someone, may have no impact on another. You kind of have to find your--
Katherine: Oh, interesting.
Natasha: -- bacteria identity.
Katherine: Oh, interesting.
Katherine: I hadn't thought about that either.
Katherine: So if you are taking a brand of probiotics, and it's not doing what you want it to do, maybe switch brands--
Natasha: Yeah, it almost--
Katherine: -- like [crosstalk 00:34:40].
Natasha: They almost need to be custom made for you in a way.
Katherine: Oh, crazy.
Natasha: It can't be one generic one's going to be the one for everyone necessarily.
Natasha: Yeah, yeah.
Katherine: Okay. Interesting.
Natasha: Yeah. But, maybe you find one that really is ... it could also be trial and error.
Natasha: Because that can also be the case, that there's a particular brand, or a particular origin, or whatever it may be that uses the one that just is a better fit for your body. Yeah.
Katherine: So, most big yogurt companies actually have their bacteria made for them in labs. So, theirs are custom ordered.
Katherine: Probably more to do with the resulting texture of the yogurt, how a particular bacteria affects that,--
Natasha: That could be--
Katherine: -- and less to do with health. But, yeah, it's not like they're using sour dough, or they're like, "Oh, we had this mothered since the 1880s."
Natasha: So cool.
Katherine: They're like, "No, we make this in a lab for consistency."
Katherine: I think.
Katherine: That's true.
Katherine: So, I would say that yogurt really started popping off in America when Greek yogurt was introduced as this concept a few years ago.
Natasha: Well, it definitely changed the yogurt game in a huge way.
Katherine: Yes, absolutely.
Natasha: Hugely so.
Katherine: But, even ... So, we consume now, in the US, 62 cups of yogurt, per person, per year.
Katherine: And cup is the way that it's measured.
Natasha: Yeah. It's one in five days basically.
Katherine: Yeah. So, maybe that's a lot, but in Turkey, it's 282 cups, per person, per year.
Natasha: Yeah, yeah. It's a daily thing.
Katherine: So, yeah, we are really not that much--
Natasha: We've got to catch up.
Katherine: Yeah, we do.
Katherine: There's no reason not to, it's so good for you, except for if you're vegan of course. So, if it started in Turkey and around Turkey, yogurt mostly went East, and Europe didn't really get into it until the late 1800s, and it wasn't part of American culture until, this is so funny, until Danone started mass manufacturing yogurt out of the Bronx, around the 1950s.
Katherine: So, that is a brand that I would--
Natasha: It's a post World War Two food.
Katherine: As most of our foods are.
Natasha: Yeah. Which was a huge game changer from how we ate.
Katherine: And so, we didn't really eat Danone--
Natasha: And food on the go, I think, kind of started to happen around then. Wanting to have more, less the making of the meal, and it was the beginning of convenience more so.
Katherine: The idea that we're so busy.
Natasha: Yes, yes, exactly.
Katherine: We couldn't possibly cook.
Katherine: I grew up eating Yo-play, and I thought it was so good, and now, I had it a couple of years ago and I was like, "What is this liquid plastic ..."--
Natasha: You want to spit it out.
Katherine: -- "that I grew up eating?" So weird.
Natasha: A lot of foods I think ... Well, partially is, I think, the bar has been raised so much,--
Katherine: Yes, yes.
Natasha: -- but I do also find in general foods, that were my favorite thing as a kid, and you have this whole memory of them and you try them now ... And like I said, some of this is just that the anti has been upped, but so often they're extremely disappointing. They taste flavorless.
Katherine: Well, and another thing I'm experiencing, I think I'm officially getting older ... I don't want to sound sorry for myself. I'm 36-years-old, and what I've noticed is that most things are too sweet for me now.
Katherine: Because I have that--
Natasha: That's when your pallet changes.
Katherine: Yes. I have that old person reaction where I'm like, "Oh God, it's so sweet."
Natasha: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Katherine: Just so many things.
Natasha: What you want ... this is ... You want the balance.
Natasha: Even though our ice cream is a sweet, we always have ... Like the Dirty Mint, it's not these extreme oils and extracts and a super sweet mint, it's real mint leaves and brown sugar, which is less sweet than regular sugar, so it's more of a ... almost like a Moroccan mint tea kind of experience.
Katherine: Yeah. And I've noticed with more of the mass market ice creams, I don't like the way they taste anymore.
Natasha: More sweet, no,
Katherine: I have gotten so snobby about deserts.
Natasha: Good for you.
Katherine: And I'm super ... especially at restaurants where I'm like, "But is it salty? I want it to be salty."
Natasha: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Katherine: That's my jam right now.
Natasha: There's ... I can't think of a flavor where we don't have ... there's almost always some element of salt or savory--
Katherine: Because you've got to balance it.
Natasha: You want to balance it, and I think it's just more interesting that way, because you don't want desert to be one note. That's a danger that can happen with it. You want it to have complex--
Natasha: -- and complexity is in layers, and really make people stop and think, I think.
Natasha: Which I have to say, when I go into our Cover City Shop is next our Headquarters, sometimes it's really quiet in there because people are eating the ice cream, or the ice cream sandwiches and concentrating so deeply.
Katherine: Oh, that's funny.
Natasha: And it's like almost this whole thoughtful experience.
Katherine: That's interesting.
Natasha: Which is totally what we're going for.
Natasha: That's what we want it to be. We're thoughtful about how we do it, and it provides an opportunity to be thoughtful and really pause, and take it all in, you know?
Katherine: Oh, that's so cool.
Natasha: And the other thing is, with ... a big, big differentiator besides ... Well, there's many, but, the innovation level, the artisan quality of ... the quality of the sourcing, kind of the uniqueness of how a flavor might be represented in a pint. But, one of the biggest differentiators between quality levels, is the air, and a lot of these bigger flavors ... Like, the ice cream I grew up eating, it's just ... it was light, or it was whatever it was because it's just almost one to one ice cream to air. And in quality ice cream, that density of flavor comes from a really, really low amount of air. We pretty much have the minimum that we can put in.
Katherine: What is that called, overflow?
Katherine: Okay, yeah. So this is--
Katherine: -- something that--
Natasha: You're good, yeah.
Katherine: This is something that people don't know about ice cream--
Katherine: -- but to your point too when they call themselves light, or low calorie, or something like that, often it's just that there's just less product in a pint.
Natasha: Yeah, yeah.
Katherine: And if you're at--
Natasha: Stretching it out.
Katherine: -- the store, and you pick up one brand and pick up another brand, they weigh different in your hand.
Natasha: Yeah, you can feel it. Briar's can say, oh, their ingredient label is clean, but you could carry that quart around with your pinky.
Natasha: I have.
Natasha: And you really feel the difference in premium. And so, with overrun, a lot of people don't know the word, you're right, and so actually ... but they do know what the end result means. If you talk to people about eating super premium, or high quality crafted ice cream, they can identify the end result, "It's creamy, the texture, I taste things more, I see things more." That's what the low overrun creates, and that's what our ... very much our ethos is.
Katherine: Yeah. So, it has a different flavor profile, because it's kind of how gelato is more intense.
Natasha: I was just going to say it. And they're really interesting because it's not cream, it's milk--
Natasha: -- but it's a very low overrun, so that's why you feel like you can eat it almost every day on vacation,--
Natasha: -- because you're not getting necessarily the butter fat, but you are getting the density of flavor that's so satisfying.
Natasha: And actually, Coolhaus, we don't over, over do it on butter fat, it's still in that super premium premium genre, but I actually like it to not be overwhelming, but be really, really low air. And especially in an ice cream sandwich where you have two cookies also, you don't want to feel disgusting. We want you to be able to eat this--
Natasha: -- more than once a year, maybe--
Natasha: -- 282 days a year.
Natasha: Like Turkish people eat yogurt.
Katherine: That would be ideal.
Natasha: Yeah. So, you have to really think about your product, and why people are using it, and how much you want them to have. And there are such particular points to address, and I think you really, really make your own, and then you just dominate.
Katherine: But I think you might be overestimating how much people, even if they don't know the term, know about it.
Katherine: Because I saw a friend post on Facebook about how she was like, "You know, I've been eating Halo Top, and it's so low calorie."
Natasha: You saw my face.
Katherine: But ... Yes I did. But, then like, "I held it ..." This is the same thing, she's like, "But then I realized ... I held it with Haagen Dasz too, and I realized it weighs half an ounce." And so I don't think--
Natasha: Remember when I read in that Halo Top is air.
Katherine: But they don't list it, it's just by volume again, right.
Natasha: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes exactly.
Katherine: That's funny.
Natasha: I think people ... I don't want to say we're playing the long game in terms of we are growing a lot, so we are looking to Europe to get people the best possible ice cream and ice cream sandwiches, or whatever products we create, possible. But we are playing the long game in terms of, when you make something that's quality, it never goes out of style. And I think when you do these weird things with air, or weird artificial sweeteners, or whatever it may be, they end up being fad driven, and people are not going to buy them constantly throughout the course of their life. I feel like you could eat Coolhaus for 100 years of one's life, and we'll keep making new flavors and new products, and making life interesting. And so, I think it all kind of works itself out. I would say we're in the game of one person buying us 1000 times, as opposed to 1000 people buying us once.
Katherine: Well, that makes sense.
Katherine: And that's just different business philosophy's really.
Natasha: Yeah. Totally. To each their own.
Natasha: And no matter what, to grow a brand, and have a lot of people even just try it, is really, really hard work.
Natasha: So it's not without recognition, but that's definitely not our strategy.
Natasha: Our strategy is to really have people fall in love with the brand, and to be heavy users, as we like to say--
Natasha: -- in the consumer world.
Katherine: I love to be a heavy user of ice cream. That's my favorite thing.
Natasha: Oh, amazing. I love it. I love it. I'll get you some of our latest treats also to--
Natasha: -- hopefully have fun with. I know you said sometimes it's hard for you to have fun with, because you know so much about food. Hopefully it's [crosstalk 00:44:06]--
Katherine: Just crying and be like--
Natasha: -- for you.
Katherine: -- I know what every ingredient is.
Natasha: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Katherine: Oh my goodness. Okay. So, Greek yogurt, the more healthy ... healthier than ice cream.
Katherine: Maybe a little [inaudible 00:44:19].
Natasha: Versatility. My number one thing I love about it, besides taste, because I love that sour tang, is the versatility. I use in dips, in dressings, marinades, for breakfast. I kind of sometimes just have it in a salad as the protein kind of on the side. There's so many uses, instead of sour cream, instead of mayonnaise--
Natasha: -- that's my love.
Katherine: Do you do that for health purposes?
Natasha: I do feel that it is lighter. I will feel lighter after, but I will feel no less satisfaction. People are so often shocked that Greek yogurt is the base of whatever we made as opposed to they thought it was something richer.
Katherine: Yeah, yeah. And to be clear, Greek ... when we say Greek yogurt, we're talking about just a thicker yogurt--
Katherine: -- and it's really just an issue of how long you drain it.
Natasha: Straining, right.
Natasha: Totally, exactly. Yes.
Katherine: So the American style yogurt, I guess what we would call it, that is not strained a lot.
Katherine: So to make it a thicker product you just strain it a lot more.
Katherine: Although we're saying straining like it's the 1800s, and in Greece, the big companies, most of what you're going to buy from a supermarket, they actually just spin it to separate it.
Katherine: So it's all mechanized.
Natasha: Right. Because I wasn't sure with the straining, I was worrying, "Okay, there could be a lot of by product and where's that going?"
Natasha: Once something becomes such a mass industry--
Natasha: -- versus being made more traditionally in generally more artisan ways.
Katherine: Yeah. Which is just not the deal anymore.
Natasha: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think there are some ... it depends on the brand--
Katherine: Sure, yeah.
Natasha: -- and there are ranges.
Katherine: But if you're buying Chobani, for instance--
Natasha: Right, right. That's--
Katherine: -- that's been spun.
Natasha: -- an example of ... Yeah, totally. That's one of the largest there is.
Katherine: And so, New York State has traditionally been the center of dairy production--
Natasha: Yeah, up state, right?
Katherine: -- in the US.
Katherine: So, they had some minor chaos when Greek yogurt reached this peak market saturation when it did, in that they have all of whey ... the liquid that's been spun out is whey, as in curd and whey, and it's highly acidic--
Katherine: -- and so--
Natasha: This is exactly what I was saying, the by product.
Katherine: Yeah, yeah.
Katherine: So, they ... A thing that a lot of food manufacturers and farms that they work in tandem together, the food manufacturers sell their product that they don't need, their by product, to farms to be animal feed. But, apparently what I read is, that the yogurt whey has the exact same qualities as orange juice, so they can't just feed it to the cows willy nilly because it will just be like giving--
Natasha: High acid.
Katherine: -- them high acid and just a bunch of sugar.
Katherine: [crosstalk 00:46:52].
Natasha: Yes. Totally. That's interesting.
Katherine: And then it's too acidic for it to be ... it can be a soil amendment, but it can't just be the straight up fertilizer--
Katherine: -- that they use in fields. So they have all this stuff, and they can't dump it into the water. I mean, big companies do all kinds of unethical stuff, but technically they can't just dump into the water because that will change the PH of the algae and all that kind of stuff.
Katherine: So they're creating all this acidic stuff, and don't know what to do with it.
Natasha: Yes. I have been following this--
Katherine: It's an ongoing problem, isn't it?
Natasha: -- for the big, big boys. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of one of those things it wasn't a product that, like I said, that was prepared to live at that kind mass, mass level--
Natasha: -- if the way it's was originally made and consumed--
Natasha: -- or how it was made. So yeah, that's ... And this is an issue in general, I think, with just a lot of our food systems when they become so, so big, and just the difficulty to kind of tackle those things that happen at that kind of scale.
Katherine: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I think that there's so many things that people don't know that they can do at home. You wouldn't think that you can get regular yogurt and then continue to strain it, much less make your own yogurt--
Katherine: -- which means cooking milk.
Katherine: There's things ... But, we don't ... This is something I talk about all the time, we don't have home Ec anymore, so people don't know these things.
Natasha: Yeah. For example, during the whole Romaine crisis, we grow a lot of lettuce, that's one of my favorite things to grow because we eat salad so often, and to not have to buy it is great. And we were kind of, I felt, devilishly laughing to ourselves, because I was like, "We know our Romaine's fine."
Natasha: This is really the only way right now, you can know it's okay--
Natasha: -- is if you grow your own.
Natasha: And I was ... We were parceling it off to people because Romaine in a Caesar Salad desperation. But, it's things like that, and not to make it all sound too easy, or sometimes there's just not ... you don't have the space, but if you can, something to consider.
Katherine: Yeah, if you can. I read an article making fun of some institution that's teaching life skills classes to adults, and they were like, "Oh, people don't know how to do stuff." But I'm like, "Well, yeah."
Natasha: Yeah, it's true.
Katherine: Exactly, they don't. If you don't get taught it as a child, then either you never learn it or you get taught as an adult. And there was one thing they were talking about was sewing buttons--
Natasha: Oh, interesting.
Katherine: And I was like, "Every time I've sewn a button, I doubt I've been doing it correctly."
Natasha: Yeah, right.
Katherine: Because no-one ever taught me.
Natasha: Yeah, right.
Katherine: That's how you learn to do things.
Natasha: Right, yeah, why not get these basics?
Katherine: Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Natasha: And it's so empowering then when you get them.
Natasha: Figuring things out is very empowering.
Katherine: I agree.
Natasha: It's just so satisfying.
Katherine: It totally is, it totally is.
Natasha: Even if that's telling your Alexa to do something and giving her a new skill, that's satisfying.
Katherine: Giving her a new skill. That's so weird.
Natasha: Yeah, it is. But you know what, I love it, so let me just be in my corner happy about it.
Katherine: Alright, allowed.
Natasha: I think because I have a two-year-old anything can be voice activated is like, "Ah, money." Because you just don't always have your hands.
Katherine: Right. You see that's just ... I'm very anti all that kind of stuff, but I don't have a kid, so I can't possibly--
Natasha: That's okay, and you're--
Katherine: -- fathom--
Natasha: -- allowed to have your opinion.
Natasha: Even if you have a child and you're anti all that, then all good.
Katherine: Right. That's the living stuff. So, here is a fun for everybody, not fun for Greece, little thing, Greek yogurt, that's not a legal term.
Katherine: That's just a phrase. And the country of Greece ... Greece really goes through it, I feel bad for them, they've been trying for years to get it to become an official designation, which really means something in Europe where it's origin of designation, I believe it's called, which is like Champaign, capital C--
Natasha: Ah, totally.
Katherine: -- it can only come from the Champaign region--
Katherine: -- the various cheeses can only come from specific--
Natasha: Very true.
Katherine: -- regions.
Katherine: So Greece has been applying, and applying to all the different ... the EU Agriculture Commissioner, and then there's--
Natasha: Give it to them, you know? Give them something.
Katherine: I know, let them have something.
Katherine: But, they can't win the argument.
Katherine: Every time they try with a different angle, it's either EU comes back to them with like, "But, you know that it's just strained. It's just thick yogurt."--
Natasha: Yeah, totally.
Katherine: "It's made all over the world."
Natasha: How about Islandic, do they have that?
Natasha: No-one has it?
Katherine: They don't. No-one has it.
Natasha: Okay. Yeah.
Katherine: But Greece is the only one that keeps fighting for it.
Natasha: Theirs is what's called Scur, theirs is the even more strained.
Katherine: Yeah. Yes, yes. Exactly, but that's just--
Natasha: They're really straining things up there.
Katherine: -- it. Yeah, exactly. Iceland and Greece have nothing to do with each other--
Katherine: -- but they both eat--
Natasha: That's just--
Katherine: -- thick yogurt.
Natasha: I saw that Danone is ... they've done a hyper straining that results in like two grams of sugar yogurt, that they say is really tasty, and that we'll be seeing this product soon. I saw it in one of my nerdy food news letters.
Natasha: Yeah. So, interesting.
Natasha: Yeah, yeah.
Natasha: It's going to be like a full, full, kind of more low carb or keto type food.
Katherine: And both General Mills and Chobani have been sued by individuals in the United States for labeling it Greek yogurt.
Katherine: The companies won, because they're allowed to call it Greek yogurt, because it--
Natasha: Because no-one ... Yeah
Katherine: -- doesn't mean I'm getting--
Natasha: Yeah, right, right, right. Totally.
Katherine: It's natural, which is a food term that I think people think means something.
Katherine: I just want everyone to understand, natural doesn't mean anything.
Natasha: Yeah, and it's no longer ... I mean, at least the food brands in the know, are no long really using it, because of that.
Katherine: I've been surprised at how there's ... Well, first of all, I have an issue with organic too, because organic doesn't mean that no pesticides were used, it means that certain selected pesticides were used. There's still pesticides.
Katherine: And also, the organizations that can designate something organic, there's different ones across the country, and they're sort of parrot governmental bodies, and so even organic, I'm like, "Nah."
Natasha: Yeah, I think ... No, it's true. And I think ... Here's my philosophy on it. I mean, going through the vending process of all of these things and non-GMO project, organic, it's all very, very intense. And so, to go through it you do have to really consider a lot of factors, and there are a lot of restrictions. Is it better that it's there? Yes. Is it the only thing to live by? No. For example, the most important thing with dairy is that it's hormone free.
Katherine: I agree.
Katherine: Which is hard to find.
Natasha: Yeah. Well, that's ... I mean, ours definitely is, and a lot of the brands that are smart, know that it just needs to move in this direction. I saw even Kraft, their singles are going to be hormone free. Good, I think that's number one. Hugely a difference between regular milk, that's hormone free, and organic milk, the organic milk is actually pasteurized at a higher temperature, so you'll see it has a longer time before it expires. So in some ways the not organic milk is actually fresher and more nutritious because less of it has been cooked off. So it's like knowing the nuances, not just living and dying by those,--
Natasha: -- I think is so important.
Natasha: For the companies that have to go through it, you do have to get a lot of things vetted, but sometimes the company is really small and doesn't make sense to go through that process, and they may be more organic in some ways than the organic certified's.
Natasha: It's just being aware, and also just ... and being aware of what the company ... Try to picture yourself on the other side, because people do get bonkers about things and just ... Research it, and be in the know, and empower yourself, and then just do the best you can.
Katherine: Yeah. And not everyone has the time or the inclination to do any research, but if you do it's--
Natasha: Right, yeah.
Katherine: -- good. There's a pizza place here in LA that--
Natasha: If you're going to have a strong opinion about it, then do your research.
Katherine: Yes, yeah. Exactly.
Natasha: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Katherine: But, there's a pizza place here in LA that I actually really like the food, and I respect the chefs, but they have a big sign on their wall where you order that says, "No GMO Wheat." And it makes me so angry, because there isn't any GMO Wheat commercially available. They couldn't use GMO Wheat even if they wanted to.
Katherine: And I hate that they use that as a selling point knowing that it means nothing.
Natasha: Do you think they know though? I think some people may not know.
Katherine: I think that the bold name owner of this place, knows so much about what--
Natasha: Okay, okay.
Katherine: -- goes into pizza dough--
Natasha: Okay, okay.
Katherine: -- that there's no possible way--
Natasha: Okay, got it. Yeah.
Katherine: -- that this person doesn't know that.
Natasha: Interesting. No, it's an interesting point.
Katherine: Yeah. And I ... There's actually so many articles that I want to write, but the state of journalism that it's in right now, I'm not getting paid $200 to write an article that's going to get me hate mail. So there's so many things I'm just like, "Yeah, fuck it. Yeah I'm not doing it."
Natasha: Yeah. I know, we've shared many topics. I'm sure many people have lots of opinions on--
Katherine: For sure, yeah.
Natasha: -- talking. But you know, it's good, it's a conversation.
Katherine: Absolutely. And I also think that people who listen to podcasts ... Maybe it is because it's a conversation and they can hear more of the nuance.
Katherine: But, podcast listeners tend to be friendlier than the type--
Katherine: -- of person who would Tweet at you that you should die, at least in my experience. This has been ... People who read the articles tell you that you should kill yourself, because the podcasters are like, "Oh, we've had a conversation about something."
Natasha: Right, right.
Katherine: So that's another fun thing about podcasts--
Natasha: No, that's interesting.
Katherine: -- viewer death threats.
Natasha: That's really true.
Natasha: Even within different social media networks there's more or less of that.
Katherine: So true.
Katherine: So true.
Katherine: It's weird. And also people if you read an article and feel inclined to tell the writer of it to kill themselves, don't. Just don't.
Natasha: Good point. I'm with you on that.
Natasha: Yeah, I'm with you on that one.
Katherine: It doesn't help anybody.
Katherine: It's probably not even good for your own soul--
Natasha: No, exactly.
Katherine: -- to be saying stuff like that.
Natasha: That's the thing. Yeah. Just don't. Just don't do it.
Katherine: Yeah. Goodness. You know what's funny, is that we went off on this tangent, and then I realized that it was actually the perfect seg, because we're done talking about yogurt, and now I was going to talk about your podcast.
Natasha: Great, amazing.
Katherine: Yes. So, you have a podcast.
Natasha: A kid friendly podcast.
Katherine: It's called Start to Sale. I'm assuming you haven't gotten any death threats off of it yet?
Natasha: No. And I have to say ... to thank the fans, because we've gotten such incredible feedback.
Katherine: And in your trailer you talked about how you as podcast host, aren't journalist, you're people who are in the industries, or the same type of roles that your guests are, and it's true, it's a different--
Katherine: -- take on it, and you're more in the shit, and you have more frame of reference with your guests.
Katherine: Well, Natasha thank you so much for coming on the show, and everyone should go check out her podcast, it's called Start to Sale, and I'm assuming it's available anywhere you live--
Natasha: Yeah. Apple podcast, Spotify--
Katherine: -- in the US. Yes.
Natasha: Yes. And thank you.
Katherine: Oh, we should spell it. It's Sale as in sell something, Start to S-A-L-E.
Katherine: Start to Sail, as in a boat would make sense too.
Natasha: Oh, interesting.
Katherine: So we should clarify.
Natasha: Oh, I like that. You're good.
Katherine: Start to Sale.
Natasha: Start to Sale, you're supposed to say it, Start to Sale.
Natasha: That what I had us ... because you can--
Katherine: Because it's in the business sense.
Natasha: Yeah, and you can quickly kind of ... You're a host so, that was the annunciating is key.
Natasha: Also, they were always saying, "CEO is something people ..." I just kind of did that, go CEO, because it's like--
Natasha: -- people don't--
Katherine: All the annun--
Natasha: We speak so quickly typically.
Katherine: Yes, yes.
Natasha: Ellie's naming us Coastal.
Katherine: That's very true. We elite everything.
Natasha: Yeah, yeah, yes.
Katherine: It's true. Awesome. Well Natasha, thank you so much.
Natasha: It was great to be here.
Madonna:Some boys kiss me, some boys hug me, I think they're okay. If they don't give proper petting, I just walk away. They can beg and they can plead, but they can't see the light. That's right. Because the boy with the cold heart catches Always Mr. Right. Because we are living in a material world, and I am a material girl